The Tortured Poets Department: A Conversation
Album cover for The Tortured Poets Department
Zelda: Hi Laurel
Laurel: Hey Zelda
Zelda: I would like to shout out Hunter Harris for this format of meeting in a google doc. This is my new favorite way to discuss things. Let’s do this. Not my fave album…but I know that’s not unique. But I feel like you and I have the qualifications to speak on this!
Laurel: Yeah, I’m still pretty mixed about the album. But I'm excited to talk through it!
Zelda: Literally. Okay the first note I had upon my first listen was: Jack Antonoff! Leave her and the synth alone!! Put. It. DOWN!
Laurel: I completely agree, Jack Antonoff has some hold on the music industry right now which is almost unprecedented. I think unfortunately that means all these big artists' albums start to sound the same. The synth beats have a time and place and ultimately it becomes pretty oversaturated, at least the first half of this album. I also think this feeling of oversaturation in general is something I’ve seen a lot of people mention about this album.
Zelda: YES! 100%. Don’t get me wrong I love Lorde and Lana and Clairo, I think that Jack Antonoff is typically quite good at what he does but the oversaturation of it in this album made it feel one note…one synth. But. I loved the Aaron Dessner moments, as well as the songs Taylor wrote alone. I think what she needs is an editor who tells her no!
Laurel: When you look at the anthology album, it’s almost completely split in half between Antonoff and Dessner as producers. And I think both have high points and weaknesses featured on the album, but personally I also have some favoritism towards Aaron Dessner. I’d argue he often pushes Swift towards her more complex lyricism and storytelling, rather than Antanoff whose priority for this album at least seems to be weak synth beats for days. That’s not to say however, I think the second ‘album’ is completely better than the first. A balance is always important, which makes it bizarre to me why Swift would choose to split them up almost 50/50.
Zelda: Yepppp!!! I am sure there is some complicated easter egg filled reason why she split it up that way; if we want to be reductive about it we could say Matty Healy was such a shitty relationship that he gets mainly shitty songs. I mean even the overuse of synth, which I’m a public hater of, could arguably be compared as some reference to The 1975. I don’t know. Not a Matty Healy expert.
Laurel: Yeah, and honestly the music video for “Fortnight” (which I loved!) also seemed very reminiscent of the 1975 aesthetic. Should we talk about the title? That felt like the first controversial move associated with this album, and half of the anticipation I felt from fans seemed to be whether she could pull it off. I guess I’m asking if you think she effectively accomplished the goal of a “tortured poets department” of which Taylor has titled herself “the chairman”?
Zelda: Great question. I think the title came off as ‘I’m going to write sad, slow, ‘tortured,’ Aaron Dessner produced songs ‘ and that is so not what she delivered with the first half of the album. It realllllly threw people (myself included) because the first 14 songs don’t totally follow this sentiment. I think that the second half of the album fulfills my initial reading of the title; a lyrical, metaphor heavy, Aaron Dessner produced album (think “The Albatross”, “The Bolter”, “Peter”), which is kind of what I was hoping for.
Laurel: Yeah I think she’s marketed this album incorrectly, not to say that I totally understand the final vision. In general, I think the tortured poet's idea is a little heavy handed, or maybe hard to take. Simply because there are so many songs in TTPD relying on very rudimentary metaphors (“Peter”, “So High School”, “Fresh Out The Slammer”, etc.). However, I do think there is some satire within the Tortured Poets Department as a concept that some people are overlooking.
Zelda: Totally. I didn’t catch onto it that quickly because I honestly know nothing about The 1975 or her and Healy’s relationship.
Laurel: I think that the titular song is actually a focus on Healy’s tortured poetry, his pretentious typewriter, his obsession with the past i.e., “Dylan Thomas” and “Patti Smith.” Meanwhile, Taylor is actively trying not to laugh, she states “This ain’t the Chelsea Hotel, we’re modern idiots.” She even backs this up by spouting ridiculous takes like “Charlie Puth should be a bigger artist.” The Tortured Poets Department is not one of my favorite songs on the album, but I think it’s essential to the story she’s trying to sell. It’s almost as if she’s saying “you silly man, you think you’re all pretentious and tortured? Here’s my 31 songs of actual poetry.” It’s a petty joke she’s telling that not everybody is catching on to.
Zelda: And I think no one is catching onto it because of the weaker spots in the album. Honestly, like you’re saying, the work of an editor would fix these issues, someone to tell her no and guide her into a succinct, effective album. There’s a lack of cohesion and the songs that do feel related kind of just sound like carbon copies.
Laurel: Yeah I think curation would’ve made this point more clear, and ultimately execution is key.
Zelda: I guess another question is like, is this heavy handed satire, or is she just always a little cringe?
Laurel: Yeah, I mean Taylor has been fighting the basic white girl allegations from day one. But I think that narrative often discredits her immense talent as an artist. But I do agree you always have to take her work with a grain of salt. Like it will be overdramatic and girly.
Zelda: Totally. I feel like that's how I felt when Midnights came out. People were FREAKED by “Bejeweled” or “Vigilante Shit” and were like ‘it’s soooo cringe and millennial’, but it's sort of like yeah, that's who she is! And like that's part of her charm to me. I mean she has never really hid that? “Maybe I’ll just stumble home to my cats?”...a collaboration with Brendon Urie. Come on.
Laurel: Yeah I think ‘outsiders’ sometimes feel the need to point out she’s this cringey millennial with awful jokes and an ego complex. Babe, I KNOW. She’s a little psycho sometimes, but she’s being truthful and messy and that’s really fun to validate as a young woman.
Zelda: BABE WE KNOWWWWW! It's so fun. And I think that for the most part it’s easy for me to be like she is just inherently cringe and being cringe is okay. But this album I feel like takes it a few steps too far. (I Hate It Here…how many people saw that and thought “this is fine?”)
Laurel: Yeah I mean originally I thought the titles were a little cringe (“Who’s Afraid of Little Old Me?”, “I Can Fix Him (No Really I Can)”, etc.) However, I think once I saw the vision the cringe went down a little. I actually ended up liking “Who’s Afraid of Little Old Me?” A lot. Ultimately, I think it just goes back to this idea of oversaturation, how many of these songs are actually tortured poetry? I think it's just condense, condense, condense. 31 songs is impossible for any artist to make feel cohesive.
Zelda: YES. It felt like the titles were attention grabs rather than authentic to the songs themselves. I also surprisingly liked “I Can Fix Him (No Really I Can)”, but felt like the title didn’t capture the vibe of the song.
Laurel: Yeah I’ve heard people say that before, and I agree, she’s purposefully trying to grab people’s attention to subvert expectation.
Zelda: Okay sorry for launching into what we didn’t like first. But I feel like we both have the fan credentials to be critiquing her! Should we jump into what we DID like???
Laurel: I think a highlight of this album is the collaborations. “Fortnight (ft Post Malone)” I think is a gorgeous utilization of both their voices. They just sort of melt together, and I think what’s exciting about this is that Post Malone is not the typical male voice Taylor collaborates with. Usually, she will use a voice such as, Gary Lightbody, Bon Iver, Aaron Dessner, Marcus Mumford, etc. Similarly, this is also an exciting change of pace for Post Malone, who we get to see a more sensitive, lyrical side too. The second collab, “Florida!!!” (ft Florence and The Machine) is a welcomed surprise from the album. Seven songs in, the Jack Antanoff synth is already boring, and then Florence comes in with a powerhouse of a voice. It almost feels like Taylor Swift got the chance to do a Florence and The Machine song instead of the other way around. We’ve mentioned the repetitive nature of this 31 song album, the collaborations are then a breath of fresh air for fans to wrap their ears around.
Zelda: Totally, and I’m not always a huge fan of her collabs. I don’t even love “Florida!!!” that much, but Florence has such a beautiful voice that I don’t hate it either. I think it's a wonderful departure from her collaborations where she has a talented artist only singing background vocals. I loveddddd “The Black Dog”! Oh my god I loved this song! I don’t just think I enjoyed it because it was a change of pace from the first half of the double album but rather, I think it exhibits what she does best! The concept of still having someone’s location is so niche to our generation but is so real. Letting go is so much harder when you have as much information at your fingertips as we do today. It was also such a nice departure from Antonoff’s synth; I love when Aaron Dessner takes the stage!
Laurel: Yes! “The Black Dog” was the first song that really grabbed me, which is scary since it’s 15 songs in. That imagery of her stalking him on her phone is so haunting. Simultaneously, we get this vocal narrative of her voice literally screaming, until the end of the song when she loses her voice. I think this is an example of Antonoff shining in collaboration with Dessner. Additionally, some favorites include “Guilty as Sin” which felt the best of the ‘tortured poetry’ and “So Long London”, which I viewed as a sequel to “You’re Losing me”
Zelda: I couldn’t agree more!!! “I stopped CPR after all its no use” is a direct response to the chorus of “You’re Losing” Me where she says “I can’t find a pulse my heart won’t start anymore.” Also notable is that she uses her actual heartbeat in the accompaniment of You’re Losing Me, but it’s nowhere to be found in “So Long London” (except perhaps in Antonoff’s synth.) This song properly fulfills the prophecy of the fifth song.
Laurel: Lowkey, I think so many of these songs might be sequels to original songs that did it better. She is trying to outdo herself at every turn, but with all the re-releases there’s so much whiplash. I’m still on the 1989 vault songs high.
Zelda: You can’t out do the doer. Other highlights for me were “So High School.” I think that it sounds straight out of the credits of a teen movie. The guitar specifically sounds like the prom scene in every movie that was released between 2001 and 2009. Like 10 Things I Hate About You or Freaky Friday. Also, huge fan of “The Albatross”…she does self loathing so well!
Laurel: I think this album will age better than people expect, and will grow on fans. However, I think the overall disappointment is real. Taylor Swift has 12 albums, 4 re-released albums, and is currently the biggest pop star on the planet. It’s easy to say her music can become repetitive, that’s the nature of the game. But at the peak of her career, I’d say she could take more risks. Bring back the electric guitar! Give me revamped country Taylor! Collaborate with more rappers, with smaller artists, with different producers! Taylor says this album more than any other was one she needed to write. And I understand that, I’m just excited for a future album where maybe we move in a new direction.
Zelda: I completely agree; 31 songs just because you can is not as impressive as I wanted it to be.
Laurel: Which is why…
Zelda: Laurel had a brilliant idea to edit the album into how we, as self proclaimed experts, would have ordered it and what we would have cut.
Laurel: Honestly, after we reorganized the album and cut down to 14 songs each, I vibed with the album! Crazy how that works. There are things we agreed on, and at the same time we presented completely different alternatives. I think that’s so real too, different songs speak to different people. Honestly, I had a great time creating my own little tortured poets department, and I think it made the listening experience that much better, so lowkey I encourage others to do the same.
Zelda: Ugh me too. Laurel, thank you for meeting me in this google doc to discuss!!
Laurel: Right back atcha, this was fun!
Zelda: The Tortured Poets Department (Zelda and Laurel’s Version). Get us in the booth!